Ikarus: Teaching and Studying in Virtual Learning Environments Home -> Weekly -> Forums -> Café -> e-learning-products for customers ----------------------------------------------------- e-learning-products for customers by Lutz Breunig - Tuesday, 4 March 2003, 07:16 PM Discuss this topic (20 replies so far) ----------------------------------------------------- e-learning-products for customers by Lutz Breunig - Tuesday, 4 March 2003, 07:16 PM Hi Forum, i would like to focus the situation regarding the basic acceptance of e-learning-products. I think CBT which never has been really accepted is now replaced by WBT which not yet is accepted, all the more WBT plus Tutor. And now "Blended Learning" obviously is the first choice, which means that a mixed learning-system is consisting of all possible kinds of learning, including usual seminars. Is that really the future of learning? Lutz Reply Re: e-learning-products for customers by Myriam Buerkle - Tuesday, 4 March 2003, 07:42 PM Dear Lutz, I think that is a very interesting point and I hope we are going to discuss it in this seminar. For me the point in this discussion wbt/cbt and now blended learning is, that cbt are first of all learning medias and blended learning means concepts to learn: for example using e-learning methods (CBT/WBT "alone", CBT/WBT with tutoring, - and even in the tutoring there are differences in quality, virtual teams a.s.o.) for the basic facts and face-to-face for the parts of the themes when it makes sense (for example presentation training, sells training...) So you can have the best of both worlds. Anyway this topic is very complex - many methods and possibilities I hope I explained it well, because my english is poor. Anyhow I read today about a new term called integrated learning - let's see... best regards Myriam Reply Re: e-learning-products for customers by Lutz Breunig - Tuesday, 4 March 2003, 10:25 PM Hallo Myriam, the point is, that a lot of customers do not accept cbt and wbt because they just don´t like it. In addition blended learning as a concept is too expensive. So they are going on with tradítional ways like seminars. Lutz Reply Re: e-learning-products for customers by Martin Maier - Wednesday, 5 March 2003, 12:21 AM Hi Lutz, this is too right, what you're saying! Many companies, it seems, have now realised that e-learning doesn't save them as much money as had hoped, if one wants to ensure a certain quality. Blended learning is answer to some, but I must say that I have some mixed feelings about it. It certainly gives students and teachers a littlebit more security (to actually meet face to face from time to time), but it also takes away some of the beauties of online learning environments, e.g. - you get to know other people in a very different (and often more intensive) way than you normally would, - and the opportunity to bring people from various areas, countries and continents together. Blended concepts tend to limit e-learning to a simply an addition to traditionaly classroom teaching. Much underestimated in my view! Martin Reply Re: e-learning-products for customers by Cherry Stewart - Wednesday, 5 March 2003, 03:20 AM All these terms— blended/integrated/collaborative/cooperative/ etc. — suggest to me that we still seem to search for an 'ultimate' answer. Learning is a very personal activity. There are many ways in which one can go about it. Providing avenues and letting the individual learner choose —that is what I think is most important. Of course, what goes with choice is having options to choose from, understanding what those options are and how to use them. Unfortunately I think we are still a long way from that reality. We have a very conventional teacher to learner paradigm that drives our presentations. My work with Australian Indigenous people has led me to believe very strongly in the basis that the learner will decide and adopt only what is needed at the time of learning. If what is needed is not available in the form and structure most suited to the learner, he moves on looking for what he needs most. Often isolation and lack of support or expertise means that the learner goes unsatisfied. E-learning has the potential to provide some of the assets that the learner can access to meet his own learning needs. The problem as I see it — we are trying to fit a multi-dimensional object —learning— into a single dimensional paradigm. Reply Re: e-learning-products for customers by Lutz Breunig - Wednesday, 5 March 2003, 11:00 AM Hi Martin, did you mean underestimated or overestimated? I agree with you that Blended concepts are going to weaken the original idea of e-learning. I have heard about an e-learning-concept in a big company where students meet in computer-classroom for individual e-learning. Isn´t that grazy ? I mean, individual e-learning should to be done in a private area. Lutz Reply Re: e-learning-products for customers by George Simons - Wednesday, 5 March 2003, 11:47 AM Lutz, hello Let me take advantage of your creative typo to say, yes, it is grazy, but not crazy. Here are a few reasons why: o In many organizational cultures people need permission to do their elearning or feel embarassed doing it in the "middle of work", so finding them a separate pasture to "graze" in is an effective strategy. o Sometimes also the desktop technology of the everyday workspace is not configured with the necessary tools,. sound cards, head phones, etc. etc., so a separate elearning facility is technecially necessary or superior. o Some personalities and cultures perform much better when they can feel the synergy of being in the same place and working together. Reply Re: e-learning-products for customers by Martin Maier - Wednesday, 5 March 2003, 11:57 AM Hi Lutz, I think the benefits of e-learning are very much underestimated if they bring together students online, that meet regularly anyway. Some people seem to be more concerned with the question "How can e-learning imitate traditional classroom teaching as close as possible?", which , I think is ridiculous (and underestimating the advantages and charecteristics of e-learning). E-learning should be employed with its strengths and what it's best with, not trying to (poorly) imitate other forms of learning. the funny thing is that we set up a language course with only very few f2f meetings. But the participants insisted on being put together in the same group with their colleagues almost next door, people they meet every day anyway. There's still a long way to go ... Martin Reply Re: e-learning-products for customers by Lutz Breunig - Wednesday, 5 March 2003, 12:18 PM Hi Cherry, to provide various avenues is a good starting point of course. On the other hand i think that the learners do not really have the capabilities to choose the right alternative from their point of view. In fact, who has learned how to learn? Also the content is not easy to choose: The learner will ask: With which content i should start, with which content i should go on afterwards, or is that indifferent? Which content is valid and for how long? Which content i can forget? Which content is rubbish? Who gives the answers? Does it e-learníng? I think e-learning is not accepted so far because the learners are more connfused than guided. Lutz Reply Re: e-learning-products for customers by Lutz Breunig - Wednesday, 5 March 2003, 01:16 PM Hello George, very nice what you discovered, i like learning by faults. With your arguments i cannot agree, i´m sorry. 1.e-learnig must be established in a relaxed atmosphere. This is never possible in a company,people even feel observed in a company-environment. 2.A company which is really interested in e-learning for their employees is also able to offer the necessary hardware for "home-Offices". 3.Learners in a "computer-classroom" are working with different e-learning-content and different levels in different time-periods. Are they working together? 4.Small companies cannot effort facilities like a computer-classroom. How should their employees use the posibility of e-learning? Lutz Reply Re: e-learning-products for customers by Lutz Breunig - Wednesday, 5 March 2003, 01:38 PM Hi Martin, what do you think: Would your langugage-course accept an f2f-video-conference? Lutz Reply Re: e-learning-products for customers by Heinrich Peter Treier - Wednesday, 5 March 2003, 02:06 PM In my opinion blended learning is the choice for in-house-learning (learning within or near the workplace). The concept of any-place any-time though demands a more liberated learning environment which does not demand any just-in-place neither just-in-time excellence but an open mind all the time and the ability to participate on a wide-spread basis. Reply Re: e-learning-products for customers by Martin Maier - Wednesday, 5 March 2003, 03:17 PM Hi Lutz, I guess they would love it. On the other hand, I find video conferences not entirely satisfactory (bandwidth) and it may distract the purpose of a discussion. At the moment, They are able to share a whiteboard they can draw or write on, mostly prepared PowerPoint slides as stimuli for discussions. It is also possible to make use of "Application sharing" (almost any application may be viewed by other group members, they can also use applications running someone else's PC) and "Websafaris". Interaction is different when you don't see other group members, but this doesn't necessarily have to be a disadvantage! There hasn't so far been a really good solution to display a group of people on an average screen. And more importantly, what do we gain from that? How does it help what we are doing online, as it imitates a face to face situation, which it isn't. I myself sometimes enjoy that others can't see me when I log on late at night ;-) Martin Reply Re: e-learning-products for customers by George Simons - Wednesday, 5 March 2003, 03:37 PM I would like us to take a broader view of this and get opinions from others' experiences. My sense of it is that both by personality and culture people will differ. Some need more relaxation to be open to learning while a higher level of stimulation in importat for others. Some need solitude while others like people around and even interact with both people and the environment. Also real financial constraints force innovative solutions. Can we get some experiences and stories from others about elearning preferences and discoveries? First person, please rather than theory. Maybe we theorize later...? Reply Re: e-learning-products for customers by Paul Pavlik - Thursday, 6 March 2003, 12:16 AM super good points here Lutz. Relaxation and a NON-stressed environment is super emportant for the learning chemicals in the brain. a good discussion would be how can we engender this ? Music, ? how can we change the set and the setting to foster a relaxed open learning CBT and WBT envir?? a sub discussion would enclude the elearning setting for those with problems, 'history' or differences, including gender and culture, and styles. Anyone?? Paul Reply Re: e-learning-products for customers by Patricia Corby - Thursday, 6 March 2003, 02:36 AM I found that elearning, when discovered at age 54 was a way for me to tentatively explore a return to the learning environment in the comfort of my own home. At that stage I lived 2 hours from the nearest F2F university, adult education etc access points. I could take part in my own time, often late at night when internet access was cheaper and the day’s jobs were out of the way. It was quiet, peaceful and a personal journey. I could also present myself online with a new personality – I don’t mean I created someone false more that in this role I carried no baggage, I was on a level with others, my age, physical location, personal circumstances were mine to reveal or not as I chose, there was less to get in the way of my learning and interaction with others. Being asynchronous I had time to think before I spoke, work out my ideas more clearly, reflect on what others said, find out the words, phrases or concepts I didn’t know without embarrassing myself – these aspects encouraged me to learn and to enjoy learning. I also found in my first experiences that the online tutor was very encouraging and positive, maybe not able to use face and tone of voice to deliver comment they were more careful with their language and thus I felt at ease. I also found that resources were easier to obtain, books take time to arrive from libraries, the internet has immediate resources so whilst I did not give up my love of books, I could balance these with other forms of information. Being able to ask a question to bulletin board or in a chat room gave much more immediate reply than letter and at less cost than phone – there was no visibility to me that the tutor had to be located, was engaged elsewhere etc he/she too could reply in their time and if my query was annoying to them I never knew it! A few thoughts on why elearning works for me. Reply Re: e-learning-products for customers by George Simons - Thursday, 6 March 2003, 07:29 AM Thanks for this, Patricia. Being 64 I am totally bowled over by the fact that I am learning more than I ever did in my life, not just by the opportunity of elearning but from the sheer availablity of instant knowledge on the Net. There are virtually no unanswered questions. I used to have to wait to "look things up later" or go to the library or ask someone. The only thing I notice is that lots of people ask me questions that they could easily answer in a click or two. I have come to the conclusion that it is less lonely to do that! Reply e-learning experience by Stefan Gaude - Thursday, 6 March 2003, 10:13 AM I agree, that at this stage it would be helpful to read about personal experiences, even more so as I think, that most theories only resemble personal preferences :-). I have the opportunity to join online-seminars in my office and at home. I found out, that the technical surroundings at home are much more suitable for the needs of online-learning platforms. At my office there are problems with our firewall, there is no sound card and so on. So I should prefer learning at home, but...to take part in an online seminar means some discipline and I am more disciplined at my office. At home there are just to many interesting things apart from online- learning :-) So I spend most of my online-time at the office. I have an office just for myself, but I think, that I also would like to take part in online-seminars at the office, if there were some other people around. So at the moment I prefer my offive for online-learning, but I like the possibility to join onlione-seminars at home. Reply Re: e-learning-products for customers by Lutz Breunig - Thursday, 6 March 2003, 04:04 PM Paul, i think how to get relaxed is a very individual and personal matter. My feet lie at present on my (private)desk while i´m typing and a cup of coffee stands beside my keyboard. Sometimes i close my eyes for a few minutes or do some gymnastic exercises. Can you imaging doing this in a computer-classroom? Of course Virtual Learning Environments can also contribute too relaxation. One could offer a continous and selectablly learn-promoting music. Also virtual graphics could be selected from time to time in order to have a short break, to look for new thougts. Or what about little audibly stories which can be selected from a menue and which fit to the learning-content? Lutz Reply Re: e-learning-products for customers by Gisela Hummel - Saturday, 8 March 2003, 10:13 AM Hi Lutz and everybody, I am busy in teaching adults, and I am learning, so I am "on both sides". I think you hit the point with these questions. We are usually scared to admit that learning needs guiding. It's sometimes regarded an old-fashioned concept. My own experience: I need no guidance concerning my own branch (science) - I am able to choose contents in the internet and my interest may be online discussions, not online leaning. Being a learner of new subjects, I am absolutely helpless and lost in internet space without an expert guide who does the choosing for me. I feel in WBT this task is not always performed or even wanted - see above. Hence the confusion you mentioned! Gisela Reply Re: e-learning-products for customers by Gisela Hummel - Saturday, 8 March 2003, 11:10 AM Hi all, I just skimmed the whole discussion. Obviously we all have different things in mind when the topic of learning is concerned. Successful online teaching depends a lot of the topic, I suppose. Some of my colleagues try to figure out a concept to teach EDV standard software via WBT or CBT. I think this is one of the lesser suited topics. Any other! But you can find a lot of attempts just here on the EDV field. Learning to use a new medium using just this medium seems to be not such a great idea. We are in danger to forget that a good deal of the learners are not so skilled in using mouse and keyboard as the developers. Gisela