Ikarus: Teaching and Studying in Virtual Learning Environments Home -> Weekly -> Forums -> Studygroup Technology -> Web Based vs CD-ROM Based WEB BASED VS CD-ROM BASED by Ante Demirian - Tuesday, 11 March 2003, 02:19 AM In the article "Media Delivery in Computer Based Instruction..." Mohammed Ali Habash makes some comparison between web based instructions and CD-Rom based instructions. He is mentioning that the quality of multimedia distributet on the web has to be lower than multimedia on CD-Rom. I could not do anything else than agree. Due to the bandwith problems this problem will last, and when the bandwith increases there will be new multimedia technology that craves even more bandwith. It will take long time before the web based distribution channels can offer the same thing offered by disc-based distribution. I want to recall that a swedish movie distributor (Scanbox AB), a while back, tried to hire out some movies through the web with streaming technology. When I made a search for it today I didn't find much about it, maybe becouse it wasn't successful. This will not succeed until the quality reaches DVD quality. I think the best way to make a qualitative instruction is by using CD, or nowadays DVD-Rom. You will have a smooth presentation in an resolution far higher than what can be offered by the web with the same smoothnes. Another advantage is that you'll have all information by interest saved on the CD. You might not need to install all the plugins that some web-browser need for showing multimedia. One disadvantage is that information on CD get old becouse it can not be updated. And the availability for a CD is not as good as for the web. Also it is easier to make an unauthorized copy of CD-based multimedia. How can we keep information on a CD fresh? Take a DVD-movie for an example. On a DVD we can find the main movie. But there is also some extra material such as theatrical trailers for upcoming movies. These movies will not be upcoming for ever, the information get old. What if there was a function on the DVD that would allow us to download fresh trailers from a specific server? In this way we combine the Disc-based technology with the web-based technology. The main information (the movie) will be in good quality while the extra information that has to be renewed can be streamed through the web. I may have slipped from the main topic which was about multimedia instructions. But my purpose was to simile to the subject by using something general within multimedia. Re: Web Based vs CD-ROM Based by Kristoffer Ullenius - Tuesday, 11 March 2003, 03:29 AM Mohammed Ali Habash's paper "Media Delivery in Computer Based Instruction: Web Based vs. CD-ROM Based" makes me draw the conclusion that Web based media delivery (WB) definitively is preferable to CD-ROM based media delivery (CDB). The shortcomings of WB, essentially concerning the quality of media such as images and video, does in my opinion not outweigh the advantages. The advantages such as the flexibility of the data delivery, accessibility, ability to update and the possibility of interaction makes WB the obvious choice of delivery media for computer based instruction. When reading this paper it seems that the shortcomings of WB mainly are caused by the limitation of bandwidth. A problem that maybe not is as common today as it was when the paper was written (1998). To solve that problem I think that you as a developer need to think twice before you use large graphics such as animations and video. Often these can cause more irritation than help. In many situations I think text with simple illustrations is more than enough. Like the "Create a Home Garden" example or perhaps instructions of how to use a word processing software such as MS Word. "Less is more", as a developer you don't necessarily need to use the highest resolution and as many colours as possible to achieve your goal. /Kristoffer Re: Web Based vs CD-ROM Based by Tobias Mueller-Prothmann - Tuesday, 11 March 2003, 11:38 AM The discussions about advantages vs. disadvantages of web based vs. cd-rom based media delivery in CBI on a fundamental level like in the paper are - imho - not really fruitful. Also the pure discussion about bandwidth is not helpful that way (we will possess huge bandwidth in future - and huge amounts of data that needs such bandwith). A fruitful perspective for a discussion about a technology starts always with a look to the aimed use and especially to its users. So a starting point for CBI could be the distinction of organization-/company-related (internal) learning environments and self- `home'- learning. Following that, another aspect then is the way of content distribution. And following that, now - and not earlier! - something like bandwidth plays a role: a company could be supposed to have greater bandwidth infrastructure than someone at home. Thus web based could be better for organizational environments while cd-rom based could be better for "`home"'-users - may be... Another starting point could be the subject - the lessons to be learned. Are images, audio, video really necessary for the learner? If yes - cd-rom (or great bandwidth). If not - why to worry about great bandwith or the necessitiy for cd-rom? And not to forget: `In a technology enriched learning environment, (especially a web-based environment [big question mark?]) learning participants my be presented with a wealth of information' (Lindquist et al. 1999: Component Framework - added to library) - may be to wealthy... And last but not least: as Mohammed Ali Habash mentions, `some authoring tools that create multimedia-enhanced applications come with Web delivery support'. And as Kristoffer already mentioned, this paper was written in 1998. Todays discussions are not longer about cd-rom vs. web based or computer based vs. non-computer based but about blended learning - take the best from everyting! So far for this time. Re: Web Based vs CD-ROM Based by Robel Altun - Tuesday, 11 March 2003, 02:27 PM The paper writing by Mohammed Ali Habash's "Media Delivery in Computer Based Instruction: Web Based vs. CD-ROM Based" The text makes me draw the conclusion that Web based module delivery definitively is more preferable then CD-ROM based module delivery. This text also makes me think about all the possibility the web can give us. I think in the future more things will be web based (ex more school courses and other stuff like films and other media forms) because the bandwidth will be better and more efficient. Re: Web Based vs CD-ROM Based by Joerg Schulze - Tuesday, 11 March 2003, 06:19 PM Media Delivery in Computer Based Instruction: Web Based vs. CD-ROM Based My initial idea after reading the text above was "Whom does he talk to?”. This article is one of the best examples for how an issue should never be dealt with. It reminds me very much of Douglas Adams' "Hitchhiker’s guide to the galaxy", in which a solution (42, for those who remember the book) was found with an enormous effort only to understand that now they have to spend even more resources to find the suitable problem for it. While the technical observations of the article, although commonplace and a bit outdated for the biggest part, may be right, they are totally insignificant if you do not take the teaching situation into consideration. This situation is mainly described by the following major points: Purpose of your project / Target group While the home gardening example is probably generic enough to allow the general conclusions regarding bandwidth and the like, it is not a very typical example for the kind of instructional software we need for the future. If we really believe that computer-based training will play a major part in the future, will have to accept that it must A: deal with very special topics (which means a very special audience) and B: teach and explain on a very high level. In both cases you will put a great deal of thought on the question of what knowledge you can expect from your target audience, how detailed your explanation has to be, what sorts of material are necessary to guarantee success. If there is still a choice of technology after you have answered these questions, you will look at the following two. Development Environment I have done quite a lot of different jobs over the last few years, but I have never been totally free with regard to the tools I used. This is true for home gardening as well as for software development. So the tools you already have and the money you can spend on them (which in my situation in the public educational system is the equivalent of Zero) are a decisive factor for the whole project, as they will certainly limit your choices. Teaching environment Last not least you have to think about the situation in which your material is used. In a classroom full of pupils it will not be very wise to use a lot of sounds. Younger students might need some more colourful pictures to stay motivated. Technical explanations can require animations, no matter what the bandwidth is. The lack of CD drives (a very realistic assumption, I promise you) might ask for a web-based solution. All in all it is pretty pointless to discuss technical details without defining the problem to be solved. Although we have technical and pedagogical workgroups separated in this course, I hope we won’t forget that both aspects determine each other. Re: Web Based vs CD-ROM Based by Jessica Smaaland - Tuesday, 11 March 2003, 08:25 PM I agree with those who think that you can’t just see to the technical aspects whether CD-ROM or Web-based is the best. You have to look, first of all, at the users. Even though many people in for example Sweden have a very broad bandwidth, both at work and at home, it’s not like this everywhere in the world. Planning for computer-aided teaching in, let us say, Eastern Europe will probably include a lot more CD-ROM. (At least I believe this; I actually don’t know how the situation is there.) The knowledge of the user is also an important factor. A user, which doesn’t have much computer experience, might think it’s easier to use a CD-ROM than the Internet. It’s usually more trouble involved with the techniques on the Internet; more things can go wrong, and will go wrong. This will of course be a frustration for those who don’t know how to handle it. And second, the subject to be taught is also essential. Most subjects don’t need a lot of pictures, movies and sounds to explain things. This will be for example economics, law, computing. These kinds of subjects will probably benefit more of a possibility for the students to interact with each other over the Internet. Like this course. :-) But in the medicin field it’s good to have movies to watch (a heart surgery?) and learn from. The movies had to be in good quality, and therefore the CD-ROM will be used. After questions like theese had been answerd you can choose among the media. If it’s really neccerary to choose. Why don’t use them both? One last comment for today. I got the feeling that Mohammed Ali Habash tried to make the CDB- and IB- module to be as similar as possible. That I think is wrong. All applications should be developed with the media’s advantages and disadvantages in mind. The selection of media should dictate the development of applications. A CD-ROM and a HTML-page can't be the same, and should not. Re: Web Based vs CD-ROM Based by Jeff Cooper - Tuesday, 11 March 2003, 08:57 PM I definitely had to LOL when reading Joerg's reply. Yes, the answer to the universe is "42" ... now... what was the question again? I agree with the comments others have made. This is definitely an apples and oranges comparison. There are definitely pros and cons to both systems. I personally favor Internet (not just web based... there is an internet outside of the web) over CDs for most K-12 (any grade) computer use. Here is my general thinking: CDs are expensive, a cost prohibition that makes their use in K-12 classrooms unappealing. There may be more money for them at the collegiate level. Indeed, many textbooks now come with CDs inside. They are outragously expensive, but can be used. On the flip side to this argument, it would be easier, cheaper, and more interactive (a key point) if instead of a CD, a website were maintained (password protected if needed) which allowed students access to work beyond the text. Broadband is indeed a major issue regarding Web use, and beyond that... *any* internet access is indeed problematic. However, if a computer doesn't have internet access, it is also just as likely that it won't have a CD-ROM. Even low-bandwidth access can give you quite a powerful tool... *if and only if you know what to do with it*. Later, I will write my story of how I facilitated learning for 150 9th graders who read at 3rd grade level. I had one 386 without windows, a harddrive, or a mouse... but I did have a Shell connection to the Net. The other downside to Web based instruction/learning is the lack of support that most educators have. They don't know where to go or what to do once they get somewhere. *SUPPORT* is a key factor in success of internet interaction. A CD for the most part is self-guiding, although for the most part, closed-ended. Yes, there are some CDs that take you out to the Web... and act as a guide. For the most part though they tend towards closed end systems, that don't facilitate student-centered learning. CDs can be very effective in *presenting* information in highly effective audio/video ways that the Web will never achieve, even with state of the art equipment and high bandwidth. And let's not just mention CDs... which are on their way *out*... the current state of the art is DVDs, which have even more power. More later... have to run! Re: Web Based vs CD-ROM Based by Ante Demirian - Tuesday, 11 March 2003, 10:15 PM I have to add some more disadvantages, for web-based learning, which might not be technical related. Very often when I'm searching around the net for something special I find only rubbish. I have to search very deep to find what I want, and sometimes I am lucky. This is why I sometime think of the Internet as a big dumpster. People put whatever information they like to the net, and just a little bit of it might be intresting for the rest of the Internet population. The first thing you have to do before attend a web based learning environment is to learn searching for things on the net. With Disc-based learning this is not a problem. You should already have all the information for the course localy saved on the disc and don't need to search the web for it. There might be some online courses that might have most of the course information at the same place. But it is still located on the Internet which are famous for its hyperlinks, and when somebody without lots of Internet skills follows the first link, and then the second and so on, he might be lost in the big dumpster. We are participating in a Online Course where one of the purposes is to search the web for information. But what if the course is about something else? What if the course is for grandmothers who has to learn how to fill an easter-egg with candy? I am sure my grandmother will not make any searches on the Internet. The technical part of the course has to be brought into line with the student's skills, and can be developed during the course. You might think that I hate the Internet. The truth is that I love it, becouse I can handle it. Couldn't live without IT! So long, and thanks for all the fish Re: Web Based vs CD-ROM Based by Jeff Cooper - Tuesday, 11 March 2003, 11:11 PM Rubbish is of course a two-edged sword! Although I agree with Ante that there is quite a bit of garbage on the Internet, I would argue that there are quite a few poor CD-ROMs out there... especially in the realm of what are considered "Educational" CDs. Many (most?) CDs are not student-centered in their approach. Rather, they focus on getting information out to students, who then "advance" to the next level of "learning." Current pedagogy (I know, this is not our stream) leans towards the efficacy of being student-centered in one's approach to learning, if you truly want students to become involved, motivated, and self-directed learners. A number of years ago our local school district spent over $1,000,000 for what was supposed to be highly dynamic software. Unfortunately, it turned out to be a very poor investment, that the district still grudgingly supports because of the heavy financial commitment. The software company no longer exists, the software is completely outdated, and neither the students nor the teachers really like it. Teachers feel obligated to use it "because it's there." Now... try and say the same for a poor internet site. There is no cost, there is no going back if it is not useful, and there is no investment. So, instead of arguing that "Yes, there are many bad internet sites out there" what could easily be counter-argued is "There are a number of good sites out there, please use them." For my own efforts, I offer the following 1500 plus links I have gathered over the past 5 years. I try to keep them current, but there is no guarantee that the links are still good. However, at one point, I thought the sites were good enough to recommend to K-12 educators: http://www.mybookmarks.com/public/coops To that end, I leave you with the thought that in order to separate the wheat from the chaff, it's good to have some farmers who know the difference doing the harvesting. Regards, Jeff Cooper Re: Web Based vs CD-ROM Based by Ante Demirian - Wednesday, 12 March 2003, 12:11 AM Jeff, I see what you mean and I do agree. But still some remarks. Jeff Cooper Writes: "...there are quite a few poor CD-ROMs out there" I definitly agree. But atleast you can pick which CDs that make most sense for you. The web provide you with links and all you can do is to click them links one by one and if you are lucky, find something you want. Jeff Cooper Writes: "try and say the same for a poor internet site. There is no cost, there is no going back if it is not useful, and there is no investment." Well, I think it could be the same for a poor internet site. If it is an educational site there might be lots of work behind it. Someone had to pay for that site, even if it is not useful. And even an Internet site can be based on some software just as a CD-Rom. There's lots of FLASH-sites out there, maybe one of them is developed for educational purpose, and maybe it is bad and not useful? Most of the time these kind of sites are provided as a service from a company. That's why it's easier to pick another service instead of the bad one, without making any economical loss. But then again we have to keep the hardware in mind. It could be expencive to upgrade the equipment for certain services. But this problem also aplies to CD-Rom based education. Take Care So long, and thanks for all the fish Re: Web Based vs CD-ROM Based by Robel Altun - Wednesday, 12 March 2003, 02:49 AM I complete agree with Ante about the Internet is a big dumpster sometimes and it takes a lot of time to find the info that I look for. It is easier to work with disc because you just have to put the disc in and start learning, and you don’t have to worry about searching for information (looking for a needle in a haystack) on the Internet. Best regards Re: Web Based vs CD-ROM Based by Attila Szöcs - Wednesday, 12 March 2003, 04:01 AM As Ante rightly pointed it out, technology has taken us some further in the last 5 years. No one has to buy 10 CD packs to store 9GB of data. That’ about 2 DVDs nowadays. Concern about bandwidth, data storage et al. is beside the point when talking about designing distance learning environments, anyway. It’s in fact a pity that technology and pedagogy studygroups are separated in this course as both aspects go closely together. For my part, the starting point is the pedagogical aspect. Without going into the details of theories of learning, there are two issues that should be considered in every didactic model: activity and communication. As for the first, activity of course comes in different shapes. Strange as this mind sound: When learning one can be actively passive. Give the answer by clicking the mouse, which takes you to the next question, click the mouse again... In this, web-based and cd-rom-based distance learning environments need not differ – provided one should bother calling them LEARNING environments in the first place. Learning without a kind of productive facet cannot seriously be called learning. And this is where the deficiencies of a cd-rom-based system come to light. Just take this course: We build a knowledge community, with me playing not only an ‘active’ but at the same time a productive part in it. Productivity is one part, communication is the other. Try and communicate with a cd-rom. Yet it works quite well in this environment. Clearly, a cd-rom-based system cannot be considered a satisfactory learning environment. It is a ‘closed end system’ (Jeff Cooper), neither allowing the type of activity crucial to the learning process nor allowing communication by itself. Re: Web Based vs CD-ROM Based by Jeff Cooper - Wednesday, 12 March 2003, 04:32 AM Attila wrote: I agree 100%. In fact, when I sat on our local school district's technology committee last year, half of the report we generated dealt with pedagogy, namely "pluggin in" with technology. The philosophy was that technology considered separate from curriculum was not to be considered. How technology created a new student-centered learning environment was considered critical for technology to be considered effective. The FGSD Technology Plan can be found at: http://www.fgsd.k12.or.us/publications/Tech_Plan_2002V5.pdf The Vision Statement on pages 6-7 and the excerpt from "Plugging In" on 10-11 are notable. I'm wondering aloud here, if we shouldn't consider intertwining the two streams here. That by separating them we are doing ourselves a disservice. Yesterday I made a post, and it was in response to an article I had read, and for the life of me I couldn't find where I had read it. It turns out that it was from the Pedagogy IV stream, an article by Merrill on "Instructional Technology" and dealt with a fairly didactic approach to IT. Although that is in the "pedagogy" stream, it certainly relates to us here in the Technology stream. I think some cross-streamed reading is in order! Re: Web Based vs CD-ROM Based by Attila Szöcs - Wednesday, 12 March 2003, 10:37 AM Hi Jeff, thank you for the hint. In fact, Merrill's different papers on Instructional Design should be obligatory reading for all of us. "Instructional Design" is a didactic model based mainly on the constructivist theory of learning. Terms as "Instructional Design" or "Educational Technology" make it quite clear that technological and pedagogical aspects of virtual learning environments can not/must not be separated. Regards, Attila. Re: Web Based vs CD-ROM Based - not expensive by Andreas Schröpfer - Wednesday, 12 March 2003, 04:23 PM Hello Jeff, I agree with you that CDs and DVDs are realy good to commit viedos or audio. At our school we are not able to buy content or expensive programmes, so we let the students do this during the course as thesis or paper (e-paper) work. This gives us the possibility to get the content free. Now to use video or audio during a course we always hand out CDs cause otherwise the local network will have to much traffic. If we burn the CD self it the costs are just 1€ so not so expensive. I also found something on the internet. A CD pressed with a cover in 3 colors costs 2,50 € per CD (for 300 CDs) that is also not so expensive. Re: Web Based vs CD-ROM Based by Christer Lind - Wednesday, 12 March 2003, 04:35 PM Comments on CD-ROM & Web Base Instruction Hi! Interesting study, demonstrating the plus and minus of these two main alternatives. The author concludes that the web solution is most favorable. Even when considering the band width and access limitations. I think I agree in general to his conclusion. There are also other factors promoting the web solution (these factors are mentioned, but not developed in detail). I think the main factor is that a web solution provides the ability to update content, and change it continuously. With a CD the content is fixed after production. Other advantages are the ease to communicate and cooperate with teachers and peers. Another interesting point is the possibility of combining the "best of the two worlds". How this may be implemented is not elaborated in the paper. Of cause, band width is a problem for people accessing with ordinary modems. I think it is almost impossible to efficiently work in an on-line learning environment if you don't have reasonable fast access (at least ADSL, or broad band). But as infrastructure improves more and more users get this facility. A possible additional problem with Internet access is of economic kind. If you don't have a flat rate (no debiting per minute) you are probably somewhat stressed, at least unconciously, by the fact that every minute you spend on line costs you some money. This may disturb the user's focus on the assignment. Some potential criticism. It is not described how the author has measured "user friendliness". It seems to me that this is his own judgement (am I wrong?). It would be preferable to have a number of users to evalute the characteristics of the two alternatives. Re: Web Based vs CD-ROM Based by Björn Finer - Wednesday, 12 March 2003, 05:40 PM "And the availability for a CD is not as good as for the web." In my opinion, the keyword regarding this matter is availability. Just like with this seminar, for instance. We can choose to participate from school, work (during lunch breaks) and/or from home. Sure, it would be possible to bring a CD to school, work or so, but what if you forgot in on the breakfast table? Then you would have to go back home to pick it up... With an online environment you won't have to remember anything else than a couple of passwords. The only downside with (anything) web based, that I can think of right now, is that the broadband ISP's, at least in Sweden, are preparing to raise the monthly fee. Re: Web Based vs CD-ROM Based by Jonas Norrby - Wednesday, 12 March 2003, 06:33 PM I think many interesting issues have been discussed this far. I don’t think you should exclude one or the other alternative only because of the aspects mentioned in the article. First of all it’s necessary to decide which target group to aim at and what kind of CBI we are talking about, what kind of content. When this is done one could argue about advantages and disadvantages between the different technologies. Of course I prefer Web-based learning. I know how Internet works and I have access to computers with broadband connection to the internet. But as we all know there are great differences in the broadband infrastructure in different countries around the world. Perhaps Internet-based learning isn’t an option at all in some of those. I think the best solution is to combine the two technologies in a way that doesn’t force you to have access to the other. Place large moves, pictures etc on a CD for those without access to broadband but also make it possible to stream it directly from the web. I think it’s very important with support when dealing with self learning. This is one of the major disadvantages that I can see with CD’s. They are enclosed and limited to the content they contain and it’s not possible to reformulate a question to get a better answer. Online you can chat with other people participating in the same course and ask for help (like here). This kind of environment with fast support stimulates and motivates learning and makes it easier to continue when you’ve got stuck. Re: Web Based vs CD-ROM Based by Maryam Rahimi - Thursday, 13 March 2003, 09:41 AM Hello Ante Demirian, It was very interesting to read your article, but it is something that I need to ask you about, what you mean when you say: Also it is easier to make an unauthorized copy of CD-based multimedia. Can you be kind and tell me more about that. Maryam Re: Web Based vs CD-ROM Based by Petri Karhumaa - Thursday, 13 March 2003, 09:52 AM That's true as long as all the information does exist on the disc. I once had an educational Java programming course on CD and it was something very terrible. You navigated by clicking on different links. Some of the anchors were linked to different documents and animations on the disc but some were linked to courses' or SUN's webpages. So my web browser dialed up my interner connection every time I happened to click on such a link. And you couldn't even know which one was a local link and which one was a web link. Also, someone said that kind of a mix between disc and web would be the most suitable solution, Well, it wasn't in THIS case. :-) Re: Web Based vs CD-ROM Based by Petri Karhumaa - Thursday, 13 March 2003, 09:57 AM Hmm, that you would have a server from where you can update the DVD course disc, sounds good at least in theory. But if the amount of data to be updated is big, you could get problems with broadwidth anyway. Also, every user would need an rewritable DVD player. Or maybe not, if your idea was to make the updates on the hard disk? Anyways, thanks for your contributions. :-) Re: Web Based vs CD-ROM Based by Ante Demirian - Thursday, 13 March 2003, 02:41 PM Well, I simply meant that it is easier to make a "pirate-copy" (a copy without license) if it is a CD-based multimedia. Sure there is ways to get unauthorized access to web-based learning, but I don't think it is as easy becouse it is secured with password and people tend to hold on to their passwords on the net since it is easier for an administrator to track them. Hope this answered your question! So long, and thanks for all the fish Re: Web Based vs CD-ROM Based by Alfredo Capasso - Thursday, 13 March 2003, 02:54 PM Well, of course Internet is not just rubbush. As Petri says even information present on a CD can be difficult to manage. However in both cases, I think, the usability of a product depends on the product's design and, often, on the user's experience of that media. Well, the latter is maybe not relevant in this context, but it was just to support my idea that Internet is not just rubbish. Only because the information is delivered on CD, it doesn't mean that it is easy to access. There are many examples of CD ROM-applications which are a complete disaster from an usability's point a view. Otherwise, a good designed product on CD has actually more advantages compared to WB. The most important advantage is that CDB is not dependent of two medias(which is the case of WB). To run a CD you just need a computer. To run a WB aplication you need both a computer and a connection! On the other hand the advantages of WB are principally about the possibility to keep the product(the webpage) updated, which, so far, is not possible or difficult to implement with CDB. Concerning the idea that Internet was just rubbish: yes, for an unexperienced user it may look like a jungle. And yes, there are many many pages and you can get lost. But for user with a little bit more experience, the Internet is an inestimable resource. With the help of such tools as Google you can get important information in a second. To get some information in a more conventional way it could maybe take years. Alfredo Re: Web Based vs CD-ROM Based by Ante Demirian - Thursday, 13 March 2003, 02:55 PM My idea with the DVD example was based on Movies distributed on DVDs. Often there is extra features like "upcoming movies" where you can se some trailers for movies that will be on cinema when the DVD is released. Eventually these trailers will get old and new movies will come to the repertoire. To keep this part fresh on the DVD we could use a streaming function. And since this part is not the most important thing on the disc we can afford loosing some quality by streaming it from a server. There is no need to save the new information on the disc, or somwhere else, since it would get old and a new update is required. This was only an example, and could easiely be applied to just about anything that relates to disc-based multimedia. Even to the learning enviroment. So long, and thanks for all the fish Re: Web Based vs CD-ROM Based by Alfredo Capasso - Thursday, 13 March 2003, 03:26 PM Generally I think that each media is more adequate than the other due to the circumstances. Thus, I think it's quite an oversimplification to say that the one is to prefer to the other leaving aside. So, as some said here, there are of course both advantages and disadvantages with both of them. But my answer was about the possibility to keep a CD updated. It is of course a good way to improve a CDB product. The only thing I'm wondering about is if this is not just making the CDB depend on the WEB? Thus, you couldn't anymore say that you are using a CDB application, as you are using the Internet to improve the product. Yes, it's not the Web, but anyway even here you will need to be connected. Alfredo Re: Web Based vs CD-ROM Based by Håkan Jeppsson - Thursday, 13 March 2003, 07:32 PM The article is from 1998 and since it is a technical comparison between old techniques it is not particularly valid to day. The author realised in his conclusion that the emerging technologies had already improved. This is some of the reasons: · Communication speed is normally increased to hundreds of KBits. · DVD is used for movies instead of CD-ROM. · Movie servers is almost a reality. · Hard disk capacity is no longer a problem. · Improved techniques (such as compression) give streaming video with good quality. However locally run applications has normally a more user-friendly interface in comparison to Webb based applications. Hopefully real designers will replace all ridiculous Webb based (HTML) application. The dialog in HTML is similar to the old dumb terminal on an IBM mainframe, sending one page at the time, and is not user-friendly. My recommendation is, use real designers when making an application regardless of the media. Let the user choose if he wants it on mobile, DVD or by the webb or in combination. Avoid to write application for fossil user with old techniques, because when your application is ready for release the world has changed. What is the best way to learn gardening? Probally with a real gardner in the garden. If he can't make it call him up with your SONY-Ericsson 800. Have a videoconferance with him and take a motion picture of your best rose. Re: Web Based vs CD-ROM Based by Marcus Kronen - Thursday, 13 March 2003, 09:40 PM I'm quite sure, that since 1998 there were published other case studies, that are more up to date than the article by Habash. But the fact, that it is out of date, makes it a pretty example to discuss on. Some of the points I want to address are already mentioned by others. However, I like to write down my opinion of a piece. The article has two disadvantages: -- it is not up to date and -- it ignores the aspect of having a precise aim and a precise target goup During five years, that have passed since the article was published, there was a heavy developement in the hardware and software sector: authoring tools like Authorware have got more features (for example for webpublishing), new streaming technologies enable a quite good quality of video and at least audio (RealOne Player and SureStream), new multimedia technologies have arised (eg. SMIL and Flash), compression algorithms were improved and it has become more likely to have a broadband internet connection like DSL. Habash pointed out that quality of video and audio on the web is not as good as it can be deliverd on a CD-ROM. But in my opinion the question is: does it not suffice for most projects? This question leads me to the second point. Habash seems to forget, that before production one needs a precise description of target group and a pedagogical approach. Then, and not earlier, is the point for pondering whether using high-quality multimedia implementations or simple internet streams. Let me add a third point: In Habash's world it seems you don't have to pay for being online. He never mentioned that point. And I think it has to be considered when you choose the appropriate medium. Marcus. Re: Web Based vs CD-ROM Based by Håkan Jeppsson - Friday, 14 March 2003, 12:19 PM Marcus you are right that the cost for the enduser is different regarding * Purchase of the media DVD or on-line access * Usage of the media such as communication Also the producer has to consider the margins after reduction of management, distribution and productioncost etc. Re: Web Based vs CD-ROM Based by Johan Nilsson - Friday, 14 March 2003, 01:51 PM I totally agree with Ante that products that we buy and consume will have a feature that lets them be updated online, most computer programs already have that function.. although for the dvd example, i think that the dvd disc in itself will need to be taken out of the equation, Most of the "hardware" storage mediums we use today (dvd, cd, cdr, md etc..) should be obsolete in the near future as bandwith capacity increases... (and people change their consuming habits away from thinking that they need to get something "physical" when buying a product)... Re: Web Based vs CD-ROM Based by Anders Modd - Friday, 14 March 2003, 07:15 PM I continue Kristoffers thread as I agreed with much of his opinions. The paper is subjective and much of his opinions is related to the authors own knowledge and technical skills. What would a HTM/Javascript/webdesign -expert prefer do you think, creating a WB or CDROM instruction ? I think too much of the article is focusing on how and how easy it was, to create the Instructions instead of focusing on the result. How we do it is partly, as mentioned earlier, based on our own knowledge and I think that the software companies (Macromedia e.g) has a major influence in the CDROM based area as they set the limits for what and how we create the instructions. The advantages of using WB is that you have the oppurtunity to work with global standards (W3C), you are not depending on any speciell software (such as Authorware) and the risk of problems when switching to another software program (from Authorware e.g) as the software surely has some "internal standards", is as I see it "nada". It's just a matter of time when ordering movies or buying interactive training programs over the web has been an established way to switch from todays real-life buying to Internet media. When the obstacles like safe payment and ingrained cultural behaviours has been conqured (!), the interaction with Internet will change. /Anders Re: Web Based vs CD-ROM Based by Jochen Dietermann - Saturday, 15 March 2003, 07:00 AM Hi Marcus, I also think you're right. The articles are outdated, even if they are interresting to read. And especially Habash compares two things that are not comparable. A reason for the outdating - as you already point out: We have now new technologies for presentation of streaming media on the web - Flash and the upcoming SVG. But their insertion often degenerates into end of itself. So, it's a good thing to remind that less is sometimes more. A thing where I can't agree in whole is the improvement of technology. Harddisks, processors and other peripherie for the home computer have made great improvements within the last five years but the online technology has not followed this fast. Most people - like me, too - still use 56k-Modems. Connection to ADSL is not possible in every place. If you live in or near a big city it is no problem - especially in an industry nation - to get a high speed internet connection. But if you live in the countryside or if you are citizen of a third world nation this could get very problematic. Thus, it is important to keep this in mind by designing an online course. Jochen Re: Web Based vs CD-ROM Based by Marcus Kronen - Saturday, 15 March 2003, 12:12 PM Hi Jochen. It's a good point to mention, that insertion often degenerates to itself. You're completely right! But I think, more and more there will be useful Flash (and hopefully SVG) animations. Currently it is a sort of "testig" what is possible with this software. And I think it very useful that there are artists that have no informational or educational approach that produce Flash animations just for the taste of it. In the second point, Jochen, you misunderstood. It's completely right, that not everybody can use the advantages of a broadband internet connection. But the possibility is there (unfortunately not for all). At the end of my article I pointed out, that it is of enormous importance to define and analyse your target group precisely before you start to design. Of course, the target group#s internet connection should be analysed as well! Jochen, can you tell me, were Netphen is situated? Greetings, Marcus. --- mck ! Re: Web Based vs CD-ROM Based by Marcus Kronen - Saturday, 15 March 2003, 12:21 PM Hello Ante. I agree with you, that finding things in Internet is often hard work. But I think your comparison of a CD-ROM/DVD-course and a webbased course is limping (Can one say that in English? It's possible in German though ...). You cannot compare a course like IKARUS with a CD-ROM on filing eastereggs with candy. That is a different approach. What you can compare in my opinion is a webbased course on filling eastereggs with candy and a CD-ROM/DVD course of the same topic. And then I would say, there would be no need to search vor information about eastereggs on the internet. That should be done by the instructional designer of the course. Have a nice day. Marcus. --- mck ! Re: Web Based vs CD-ROM Based by Jan Lundholm - Saturday, 15 March 2003, 07:26 PM I agree with u Björn. availability is a really important issue for learning. Why should learning be limited to just take place in a certainly area, like at university, work, or home? According to me availability is a important area that the article "Media Delivery in Computer Based Instruction: Web Based vs. CD-ROM Based" doesn’t discuss. I think that the more availability learning is, the more u will learn. The vision should be that "learn wherever and whenever u want". With internet this is a reality. Another factor that I think is forgotten in the article is the factor interactivity. One of the things that make people learns easier are to interact with each other. As i can see it there is only one way to interact with each other, and that is via the web. Of course u can make applications on CD that are made for interactions (like chat programs) but in the end communication worldwide have to take place at internet. So if someone still wonders about my opinion... Yes, I think Web Based learning is having a lot of advantages that CD-ROM doesn’t… I agree with the article in general, even if it’s like a moderator said ...like comparing apples with oranges... Re: Web Based vs CD-ROM Based by Monika Hanesch - Saturday, 15 March 2003, 10:26 PM Pooh, it took me a long time to read all these postings. My general opinion to this article is that we have to decide which media to use according to: 1. what do we want to teach people and which media are really necessary? It was already mentioned in this discussion that we do not have to use every technology which exists just because it exists. 2. who are our users? The second point was also mentioned yet but I got a little bit angry about Hakan (sorry, without gloria on the first name) speaking about fossil users.I know for example that in my field of research there are many people in Eastern Europe who might be interested in sharing knowledge with us. Do you call them fossils because they do not have the means to pay for a broadband internet access and a SONY-Ericsson 800? By the way, I am privileged even here in Austria with my broadband access.I could not afford it on my own. Your recommendations might only apply to Sweden, Hakan :-) Monika Re: Web Based vs CD-ROM Based by Håkan Jeppsson - Sunday, 16 March 2003, 12:13 AM You are right you have to know who will use the system and I was thinking of Swedish customers. In our country the society in the cities adopt new technology very fast, so if you develop a system it is outdated within a few years, so you have to think strategic into the future. You also have to know how much your customer is willing to pay for the system you are going to make. So if your client can afford to pay for a gardening system she might have money to pay for a modern system. I don’t think we will help the poor people by convincing them to by products like this. Until we can help them in another way they will be better of feeling the nice smell of the flower and have a nice chat with their neighbour about what to do. Poor people don’t have computers, so I send them money to build villages for children without parents. What do you do for the poor people? Monika we all mean well and want a better happy society for everybody in the end. Our path could vary but we have the same goal.:-) Håkan Re: mck - Web Based vs CD-ROM Based by Jochen Dietermann - Sunday, 16 March 2003, 07:19 AM Hi Marcus, seems we're talking about the same. Of course there are useful Flash animations e.g. menues and films on web-sites from the art corner. But on educational web-site a designer has to ask himself if he should use these techniques or not. In my opinion online courses should reach the utmost public as possible and multimedia stuff needs a fast internet connection. Though, high speed broadcasting is available it is not always possible to rely on its presence. So, we come again to the end that one has to design a web-site carefully depending on the target group you to address it to. Now to the location of Netphen: It is near Siegen (that has a university ,too). You see we're not so far apart. ;-) Jochen Re: Web Based vs CD-ROM Based by Marianne Hetty - Sunday, 16 March 2003, 11:09 AM I agree, as so many of you do, that this article is not quite up-to-date. The development of technology goes so fast that perhaps even an article one year old is too old. And I also think that the article really doesn't give that much information. It's up to the designer of a course to consider web-based vs CD-ROM but only after finding out who the course is meant for. Marianne Re: Web Based vs CD-ROM Based by Monika Hanesch - Monday, 17 March 2003, 08:23 AM Hi Hakan I did not want to say you are a bad person not caring for poor people. Your statement that we should only use the newest technology just does not apply to each situation. If your target group has everything on hand, you are right to use all the new technology to make it attractive to them. I see it all from a university standpoint and I know a lot of students using very old modems. (And I am still believing everybody should have the right to have access to knowledge.)Therefore I would prefer to offer the basics of a course in a way everybody with Internet access can take part. Then additional materials can be offered for those who have the possibilities to view it. At least, that is the way I would like to do it. But as I said in my first posting: it depends on the content and the target group. Now we are far away from Web Based vs CD-ROM Based but I am sure these problems will be discussed again. Monika Re: Web Based vs CD-ROM Based by Helena Nilsson - Monday, 17 March 2003, 09:41 AM To be able to communicate knowledge in the first place, you have to know how to structure the information. This is important no matter if you choose webbased or CD-ROM based way. You have to have some basic knowledge about the human way to act and think. This matters when you are choosing what kind of text you use, how fast the pictures are downloaded etc. I can just think of myself, how impatient I am. From a technical aspect it is important to be aware of the limitations of what kind of medium you choose to present your information. You better carefully think of whom will use your material and how they will use it. I think a common mistake is to use all brand new features, pop up banner, load music and animated movies etc. This kinds of features take time and space. There are many out there that have computers that are unable to support this. If they have computers supporting this, it can be pretty annoying with to many features. I do personally prefer webbased. I think this is a more flexible way to learn. +It is easier to up date information on the web. + I can use them from more than one workstation whiteout bringing the CD ROM. +They use up little or no disk space. +They run faster. One disadvantage I can think of is that I need to have access to Internet. However, people learn differently. This is a big advantage of both webbased and CD-ROM based learning. It is easy to implement many different way of learning the knowledge that is presented. Re: Web Based vs CD-ROM Based by Martina Gajewski - Thursday, 20 March 2003, 10:54 PM Dear Anders and Kristoffer, I really enjoyed reading your postings. That was very informative. Martina Re: Web Based vs CD-ROM Based by Martina Gajewski - Friday, 21 March 2003, 05:08 PM Hi Tobias, I like what you write about company- versus home-based learning and the different infrastructures as well as your questioning the "fundamental" division of evaluation into web-based vs. cd-rom based instead of looking at the teaching results. But looking at the teaching results COULD actually lead us to needing a lot of audio and/or video or graphics. Example: Teaching a foreign language via PC needs audio and video would be of tremendous help, too, according to modern foreign language teaching didactics. (or just take Howard Gardner's theory on learning via multiple intelligences ..... but this is rather a pedagogical issue...) OR: In a course on graphics design or art design or CAD-design graphics could be of great importance. Then we WILL have to look for solutions like good compression techniques, zipping files and unzipping them.... In an online-course I took on teaching mathematics for example, the course providers sent us a cd-rom beforehand with all the necessary software on it like unzipping software or Viewers or Browsers or Excel or .... That I found very useful. Cheers, Martina Re: Web Based vs CD-ROM Based by Martina Gajewski - Friday, 21 March 2003, 05:35 PM Hi Jeff, wow, I am impressed by your collection... Unfortunately, I couldn't find anything about Shakespeare's Hamlet there, which I am teaching at the moment ;-) Cheers, and thanks a lot anyway.... (this is meant to be serious) Martina "User-friendliness" and "the best of 2 worlds" by Martina Gajewski - Friday, 21 March 2003, 06:06 PM Hi Christer, thanks for the hint that the author didn't really elaborate on these 2 aspects. I tried to find out some more details in his essay but indeed can only find a few. He himself puts "user-friendliness" into quotation marks in his introduction. On the following page he explains "user-friendliness" as to AUthorware with - built-in functions and variables to keep track of one's learning process like evaluating data - the speed with which videos load and pictures were displayed, i.e. performance aspects - screen resolution With regard to WBI, his explanations are a bit blurred: - frames help to present information in a more "useful fashion, making documents more aesthetically appealing" This is kind of an unusual language when speaking of technology ...... Cheers, Martina