Ikarus: Teaching and Studying in Virtual Learning Environments Home -> Weekly -> Forums -> Studygroup Technology -> Time to summaraize the first part ! TIME TO SUMMARAIZE THE FIRST PART ! by Ken Larsson - Monday, 24 March 2003, 04:06 PM Dear participants, I have followed your discussions with great intrest, several really good remarks have been made on the subject of e-learning and techology. I also appreciate all you good links, there are a lot of good materials availible online. Even if many of you have been very active there is a few that have not been hear mych from, I do understand if you feel a bit overloaded by the amount of messages and maybee a bit shy to post your own views, but want to urge you all to get into the discussions and make you contributions known. As a last thing I would like to invite the group to try to summarize the experince sp far, what new have you learned on the subject of e-learning. :-) Ken Re: Time to summaraize the first part ! by Jessica Smaaland - Monday, 24 March 2003, 05:28 PM I must say that I didn't think the subject could be so complex. It's a lot that you have to think of. There's many different techniques that could be used, and all of them have their own advantages, and disadvantages. Different people also have their own understandings about it, and it must be hard to make everyone satisfied (but it's the same in the real world too...). That's all for now I think. I'll return later. Re: Time to summaraize the first part ! by Jochen Dietermann - Monday, 24 March 2003, 06:24 PM The subject of e-Learning is an area where different philosophies and technologies come together. From simply publishing of content on static web-pages up to interactive courses that provide engaged learning, everything can be found on the web. So far we have discussed about CD-ROM versus web-based learning environments and pointed out that web-based courses have more advantages than disadvantages - above all fast changing of content, relativly cheap and fast distribution, accessible nearly everywhere where an internet connection is available. A real interactive Virtual Learning Environment lasts not only on content, also it needs interaction between the students and between the students and the teacher. Hence, there are discussons about P2P and sychronous communication between the participants. What may hinder a synchronous communication are different time zones and heterogenous interests of the communicating persons. So, synchronous communcation just makes sense in "defined areas". That may be a place like a university or school - or the joinment on the same course or science domain. To build environments you have to look carefully at what kind of group shall join it. If you want to design a course that could be accessed by anyone who wants to take part, the content should be carefully designed and a high speed internet connection should not be assumed. If you know the environment the course will be designed for - e.g. a company network - you can set the techniques and the content precisely on the needs of this environment. To write content for online-courses design patterns should be given. With TeachML and LMML there are patterns available that base on XML. (See http://www.targeteam.org for TeachML and http://www.lmml.de for LMML - on the upper right corner you can switch the language). When styling the content - that means to choose the font-family, font-size etc. - you should take care of the fact that reading on the screen is different from reading in a book. The kind of font and the font-size have to fit this fact. Metadata is a possibility to give informations on the content of web-pages and make them searchable for machines. The IMS Consortium has published metadata schemas for learning content that base on the Dublin Core (DC) schema. For more informations about this take a look at http://www.imsglobal.org. That's all so far - everyone whose theme I've forgotten may apologize ;-) but I hope I got the most important discussions gathered here. Jochen Re: Time to summaraize the first part ! by Robel Altun - Monday, 24 March 2003, 10:50 PM Hi ken My experience so far of the online course is good. I have hade lots of fun searching for information on the net about things that involve the subject (the three articles). I have debated two of these articles. I have discuss mostly (have put a few contributions) about the article about Web Based vs CD-ROM Based. Best regards Robel Altun Re: Time to summaraize the first part ! by Christer Lind - Tuesday, 25 March 2003, 09:38 AM Hi Ken & all tech group students My first impression of this first phace was confusion. Several people writing about various things. I agree to some extent with those who initially lack the "meta" level of the course. What are we really supposed to learn? How? At the same I realize we have to find out much on our own hands, students are "prosumers..", and will be partners in the creation of purpose and content. Some quick points I believe can contribute to successful online learning: * clear goal and objectives for the learning project * participants selected for achieving this goal * Not too many people involved * a technical environment that supports the goal and the participants' actions * technical solutions that can facilitate personal (but virtual) contacts and interactions among within the group and teachers. * a "cultural" environment supporting ideas and interactions. -:-) Christer Re: Time to summaraize the first part ! by Karma Tamang - Tuesday, 25 March 2003, 05:27 PM My experience so far is positive. I spent all my time reading the contributions. I have not taken part in any discussions till now because either I had nothing to say due to the lack of knowledge in that specific field or the subject was not interesting enough for me. The other reason might be that this is the first time that I am taking part in a seminar like this and I'm too busy reading ... Anyway, I will try to take part in discussions in the coming days ... Thanks to all for the informations !!! Re: Time to summaraize the first part ! by Monika Hanesch - Tuesday, 25 March 2003, 06:01 PM I agree with everything Christer said,especially the points he thinks important for online learning. I have a total information overflow, because I am not a technician and I knew nothing about elearning before I started with this course. To deal with this load of information I started to follow only those threads that might touch my individual work. There will surely be a benefit for me in this course. I just hope that all the information (e.g. the library) will be available for us afterwards. This might give me the opportunity to read a little more about those things I skipped because of a lack of time. Re: Time to summaraize the first part ! by Jochen Dietermann - Tuesday, 25 March 2003, 06:33 PM Hi Christer, hi Monika, you both are right - there is much material to read and one doesn't know what to read at first. I think we should split the group into subgroups like the "pedagogy people" already had done. Into this smaller groups - let's say 6-8 participants - we could discuss and work out a special theme. Even for the none technicians there's enough to explore, e.g. the organization of online-courses or how to build trust between the participants of an online-course etc. Other points we have talked about are the underlying language a Virtual Learning Environment could be built with (i.e. XML, XSLT and so on), P2P and synchronous communication between participants and the styling of web content to make it better readible and, and, and... So we have enough items for groups to work on. Next week the first group work will start. So I'd like to ask you, Ken, how should it act? I think it's the right time to give us some hints now :-) Jochen Re: Time to summaraize the first part ! by Jochen Dietermann - Tuesday, 25 March 2003, 06:51 PM Hi Karma, it would be nice to hear from you. It is my first time that I'm taking part in a course like this, too. But, well, I'm having ones say to many things (even on the danger that I'm wrong) ;-) I read in your profile that you're a consultant and software developer. It would be interesting if you write about how the versioning management (CVS) in a software company is handled. I think many of us haven't read an article right out of the "real world". An introduction of CVS could be helpful by inventing how different versions of the same content can be managed and how version management is organized (who, when, where). This is just a suggestion for a new item in the discussion - if you have other plans, don't dwell on this. Jochen Re: Time to summaraize the first part ! by Ante Demirian - Tuesday, 25 March 2003, 09:10 PM During the time that has gone by I have experienced lots of thing. As many of the students in here I was lost in all the information that was given by other students and also all the information under the different topics. I realized that I have to start filter the given information by scanning through the text searching for key-words. By limiting the information this way I was able to learn new stuff. And could later, when I had time, go back to information that I had rejected from the begining. By using key-words you will often get rid of the redundant information in an effective way. Re: Time to summaraize the first part ! by Helena Nilsson - Tuesday, 25 March 2003, 11:51 PM It is the first time I am taking part in an online course that gives me the opportunity to interact with other participants. So far I must say; this course is an experience. So how do I like it? I find it a bit stressful. Many persons have already mentioned the word information overflow. However, slowly I learn to read messages what I think is interesting. But is this the way to do it? I am not sure what the teachers are expecting from us. How much do we have to interact? Is it better to send many nonsense messages just to be seen or few relevant ones? I do not think the goals in this course are clearly enough. Another thing that I find interesting is that we have meet "real" problem in this course. Problems that can occur in an online course like misunderstandings, the first quiz, that you can be sick even on the Internet etc. One aspect that I have learned much about so far is how to motivated participants to take the course and to stay on the course. I now completely understand the difficulty. It is not about thinking the course is interesting or not. This course put a greater responsibility on you as a student than a face-to-face course. As every one I try get the most out of the day and knowing I have access to this course 24 hours 7 days a week, I must say, makes it hard. I always end up doing things here late at night in the last minute. Maybe I am bad at planing but I am sure I am not the only one. (Now is the time 23.51). Re: Time to summaraize the first part ! by Tobias Mueller-Prothmann - Wednesday, 26 March 2003, 10:53 AM I think to split our group into subgroups (like the pedagogy people) is a good idea! This does not mean that they are working completely independently from each other, but everybody could better focus on his/her special focus of interest. Re: Time to summaraize the first part ! by Karma Tamang - Wednesday, 26 March 2003, 12:50 PM Hi Jochen, Thanks for the tip. I could tell something about cvs, but only as a user. I use cvs in my everday work while I do coding but for the management of the cvs system, we have a cvs manager. The idea of splitting the group is not bad. In this way we could really concentrate on a topic and discuss it in depth. I am flying to Nepal tomorrow. So, I will be out of touch for a while till I am online again. Karma Re: Time to summaraize the first part ! by Christer Lind - Wednesday, 26 March 2003, 01:52 PM Hi Monica & Jochen, Good points! Let's see what will happen next week. Now I have to cut some bushes in our little garden. Since the weather is extremely nice here in Stockholm I simply must do it NOW! See you :-) Christer Re: Time to summaraize the first part ! by Jessica Smaaland - Wednesday, 26 March 2003, 06:17 PM I must agree with you. I feel insecure regarding what it is that is expecting from us. I feel like I write here quite a lot, but it's other who writes a lot more, and other a lot less. Re: Time to summaraize the first part ! by Louise Andersson - Wednesday, 26 March 2003, 07:26 PM Hi Ken, Since I had some serious problem to become a participant of this course - I'd like to start to tell everyone: I'm still confused... I got my password just last week and when I logged in there was this total overload of information and I became overwhealmed to try to get a grip of all the students who already had started their discussions. I'll try to catch up during this week so if anyone has some recommendations on how to get up to date - please respond to me! //Louise Re: Time to summaraize the first part ! by Håkan Jeppsson - Wednesday, 26 March 2003, 08:45 PM Dear Ken One thing I have learned with e-learning is the importance of clear goals and the importance to find out what is the best way for a individual to get a competence increase for life. The importance of having a perfect learning environment tailored for an individual, so that he/she can learn a particular subject. The impact on and by the group has also to be considered. (I have elearned a lot in this area) As in all education we have to gain attention and interest by quality instead of quantity. The moddle is a tool where it is easy to set up and to make several people to communicate but my first impression is that its to free and difficult to tie the sack as a group. · The chat room is like standing in a dark room and suddenly you realize that everybody is talking in the mouth of each other. Let it be light and at least a “table or chart” to gather around (se discussion about Real Time Communication). · The quiz is a very interesting way to let the student find new knowledge. Here it is important to ask the right questions and maybe they should be tailored for each student. And they should not be too complicated it is better that more time is spent on reading instead of searching. · The discussion in a nested way seems to work fine. However it is growing and I don’t have the motivation or time to read it all. You read too much and communicate to little. (The problem is that people write long messages like this one. Sorry). · The importance to think twice before you write is very important since you can’t make it undone (I have made several mistakes during this course all ready, but it is my fault). It is crucial to have a skilled facilitator who could in a inspiring way awake and use the dynamic in a study group for the contribution for all. This asynchronous discussion we have now with :-)Ken is very good and it shows the importance of the facilitator to tie the sack and keep us on the track. I think Ken are doing a great job with our "there is always another solution" technology group. e-Håkan:-) Re: Time to summaraize the first part ! by Håkan Jeppsson - Wednesday, 26 March 2003, 09:24 PM Hi Jochen According to our course organisation and assignments we will be divided into small groups together with students from pedagogy and law and try out some various learning tools. We can always go back and discuss in the technology group and when we do so then your idea about to categorize our discussions to certain subject would be just perfect. e-Håkan:-) Re: Time to summaraize the first part ! by Petri Karhumaa - Wednesday, 26 March 2003, 09:36 PM My experience this far is that I've learned quite a lot but cannot precisely describe what it is that I've learnt:-) I mean, it isn't a fixed small/big thing that you are trying to learn but discussion threads live kind of lives of their own, you never know where they lead:-) Another feeling is kind of stress, excactly like the others have said. Sometimes hard to know what is supposed of us. And sometimes a feeling of that you MUST contribute with something, in other words write to a discussion just to show that "here I am, give me credits for the course" even if one didn't have anything to say. Re: Time to summaraize the first part ! by Jeff Cooper - Thursday, 27 March 2003, 05:59 AM I have greatly enjoyed the time I have spent within this seminar so far. It may not seem so, because quite often I am making comments that may seem at first glance to disparage this environment, or the constraints placed upon learning. I do think that as adult learners we should be following the path of andragogy, more so than didactic pedagogy, and feel that the team leaders do understand this. The flow of discussion, the assignments and structure of the seminar are very loose in some regards (which is good I think), and tight in others. It will be interesting to see how the injection of "moderators" into the mix will change the dynamic of the seminar in the weeks to come. I look forward to working on my chosen topic of Educational MUVEs, and hope to show my colleagues around two or more environments. I also look forward to learning more about distance education and virtual environments from my peers here. I've already learned quite a bit in this short time, and expect to learn quite a bit more. Regards, Jeff Cooper Re: Time to summaraize the first part ! by Andreas Schröpfer - Thursday, 27 March 2003, 11:45 AM I think that this course is something good and it is something important for e-learning. The topics for the individual work are really interesting and they will be a collected knowledge for e-learning. (Would be nice if we could make a book out of it ;-) - just an idea). The discussions are really very usefull and interesting. That was the first time for me to find a forum where so many people actively discuss e-learning topics. It would be nice if there will be such a forum or discussion board availiable after the course (somewhere in the web). The course itself was a little bit disapointing. Why? Because the discussions where independent. They where often started by participants and where often not directly related to the course. I also had problems to print out the articles from the moderators library at aln.org the word wrap was not correct (even with the IE) so I had to read them from the screen after I printed out several pages. :-( But at all I think the course is very important for e-learning and it will be a big succes. A litle bit more advice and motivation from the moderators would be nice ;-) I am looking forward to the 2nd part!? Re: Time to summaraize the first part ! by Jonas Norrby - Thursday, 27 March 2003, 07:14 PM I totaly agree. It's hard to know exactly what the teachers are expecting from us. I have done all the things i've been told to, but I haven't got any feedback that it's okey and I haven't got any grades at all. Is there anyone that have received any grade? I just follow the stream. I do the exercises and sometimes I answer a question in some of the forums. In the beginning of this thread Ken Larsson wrote: "Even if many of you have been very active there is a few that have not been hear mych from, I do understand if you feel a bit overloaded by the amount of messages and maybee a bit shy to post your own views, but want to urge you all to get into the discussions and make you contributions known." When I first read this I asked myself: -am I one of those that he is talking about or have I done enough? How do they measure our participation, except for the exercises? Re: Time to summaraize the first part ! by Jeff Cooper - Thursday, 27 March 2003, 07:39 PM As a moderator and a student, I wanted to let you know that currently there is no rubric for grading, that we haven't begun our moderating position yet (it will start Monday), and that the grading will begin later. I would expect that in a forum such as this, that assessment is one of the least critical elements for a successful seminar. Much more important will be the learning that goes on (on both individual and group levels), professional collaboration that develops (in both short and long term), and what new avenues for inquiry come to light. In America, grades have always been considered of utomost importance. Indeed, now, with the "Now Child Left Behind" guidelines, it seems that assessment has risen to the top of the list from politicians as to what is important in education. However, *educators* disagree. Alfie Kohn argues that assessment and competition actually hinder the learning process, and I agree with him. So, in a nutshell, I wouldn't worry too much about your grade in this seminar, although I am assured from the team leaders that more is to come, that a "Welcome Letter" is drafted and will be on its way to you on Monday (which will answer several of your questions), and enjoy the learning process as much as you can. Regards, Jeff Cooper Education Technology Specialist College of Education Pacific University I would really like to get to know your understanding of your role as moderator!!! by Martina Gajewski - Thursday, 27 March 2003, 10:56 PM Martina Are you just "animating" us like sportspeople on holidays? Where's your content input? Where is your role as organizer, helper, person to structure discussions, help us to focus on strong aspects, .... Thanks Jochen, I think you did a good job. by Martina Gajewski - Thursday, 27 March 2003, 11:13 PM By the way, are YOU the moderator? If not, you should register with the money givers of this course. You did what I expect a moderator to do: to summarize the major discussion aspects, thereby focusing the participants on the central aspects of the topic "technology". I have almost nothing to add, just to reinforce: It is important, as many pointed out, to analyze the goals and context of a learning environment first + the technological environment of its users (company, university, home, school, non-profit organization) Is it going to be web-based or cd-rom based or a mixture which is not elaborated on in the article? Then one would have to choose an appropriate "course model" according to Robin Mason. (content+support; wrap around; integrated) Last one would have to set up the architecture, preferably some prototyping environment to let students test the environment. Thereby Synchronous Elements are becoming more and more desirable, maybe, depending on time zones to overcome, content and context of the learning. Martina Re: Time to summaraize the first part ! by Björn Finer - Friday, 28 March 2003, 11:08 AM I've learned that it takes time to find 'your' place in a new group. And, that it's difficult to have an angle that hasn't already been presented. Plus, of course, that http://www.google.com is your best friend online. Re: Time to summarize the first part ! by Myriam Buerkle - Sunday, 30 March 2003, 07:46 PM Hi all, there comes my personal summary of the first phase. Like other participants I was a little confused and overwhelmed by the numbers of participants and postings on different themes in this phase and in the tech forum. That confirmed my opinion on e-learning, that it is important to have targets, structure, clear tasks and known/surveyable partners (participants and moderators). For me it would have been easier to start the seminar with clear tasks, structure and targets. The degree of liberty we had in this phase seems to me better placed in a progressed part of the seminar when everybody is familiar with the environment, the contents and some of the other participants. On the other hand I confess that I had not enough time and patience in the past two weeks to get actively into the discussions. So I watched the postings coming in my Ikarus Outlook folder and followed the discussions quietly. I recognize so far my own responsabibilty on the success or failure of my efforts to learn ;-) Now I'm looking forward to the next phase and the work in small groups on specific tasks. cu Myriam Re: Time to summaraize the first part ! by Viktoria Söder - Monday, 31 March 2003, 05:34 PM I agree with you, Petri. Just to show my point, I write this just to say I'm still here, reading and searching for what sense it will make for others to hear that I agree with you. I still haven't found the purpose of this seminar. It is certainly interesting to hear different points of view on on-line learning, but to what ends are we discussing? Perhaps the 'noise' is to loud. I read most contributions and find several that are interesting. Problem is; I have to save them separately on my own computer since there is no easy way to find them again on a later date. Also; I wonder if there is an easy way of finding where you have posted your own comments. nts might prefer instead of teaching, moderating or contributing in a different way themselves). It’s a good idea, but personally I prefer a real classroom and a teacher I can see and hear (and by this I don't mean on the screen or through the loudspeaker:-D!).