Ikarus: Teaching and Studying in Virtual Learning Environments Home -> Weekly -> Forums -> Studygroup Technology -> Is this really going to take us anywhere? IS THIS REALLY GOING TO TAKE US ANYWHERE? by Joerg Schulze - Thursday, 27 March 2003, 09:25 PM Thanks very much for the first slightly critical remarks about the course that start appearing. I was just about to quietly withdraw from this seminar altogether, because my disappointment was in such a big contrast to the loads of generally optimistic e-mails. I might be old-fashioned, but I really expect a course to be “GUIDED” by people who follow a pre-defined “TARGET”. On this way, I expect them to provide “MATERIAL” and maybe test “KNOWLEDGE” or “ABILITIES” that were “TAUGHT” before. Instead of that I get warm welcomes by anyone, the general understanding how great all this is, the hint to go out into the web and browse a bit and finally – sorry, no offence meant – childish quizzes. Don’t get me wrong: I do use the web to find information; I agree that (sometimes) you find something valuable there, but I can do that without being on a course. If I take part in one, it should provide something I don’t already have. Of course some people save my time by providing articles I don’t have to look for, but that time is easily consumed by the loads of unimportant mail I get every day. I tried to get information on what the course would be about beforehand (especially because its title was so general), but there were none. Then, after the official start, I hoped I would be introduced to the concept, but now it seems there is none. If everybody feels disturbed by my stubbornness, just tell me so; I can easily quit. However, I do have the feeling this e-learning project does not provide much I couldn’t have reached on my own and so I invite anybody who cares to discuss my question: Is this really going to take us anywhere? Re: Is this really going to take us anywhere? by Martina Gajewski - Thursday, 27 March 2003, 10:50 PM Hi Joerg, thanks so much for your (the) first critical comment on the moderation of this group. I have been reading all the postings in this group every day for a week now, and I agree: It is based too much on "self-regulation" and our "self-organisation". My impression is, that the first 3 articles to read are not the best: "Too old?!" as some of us already pointed out. I, too, would like to simply get some guided knowledge, at least at the beginning of such a course. Instead I am being confronted with a) an article that simply talks about the pros and cons of web-based and cd-rom based learning. Nobody tells me in what way this is relevant to the further development of our course. Are we going to focus on existing web- and cd-rom based VLEs or is one aim to help us build our own vle web-based or cd-rom based or what??? Why aren't there at least some central keywords given by the course organizers to tell us what the content here in the technology group is going to be? b) an article about 3 course models, which I personally favour but which is rather written from a pedagogical point of view. By the way: Is this article the cause for following such an open "integrated course model" here, where the "distinction between teachers and taught" has been "broken down" now in its best form? How radical do the course organizers follow constructivist theories??? Do they, in the end, make us become not just "collective constructors" of this course but of any course we like to set up ourselves? Has any form of teaching dissolved in the end? (except for grading us, of course) c) with an article on the architecture of a prototyping course model. First of all the architecture is not explained well enough, secondly lots of course participants started talking about this and that in synchronous teaching, not considering the overall architecture of a system anymore. Isn't it also surprising that nobody, except for J. Dietermann (right name?) summed up the discussions as obviously intended by Ken? Is Ken our moderator? I didn't really notice. Isn't that what he gets paid for, to summarize our discussions? At least that was what a moderator did for some of the courses I initiated when I was in charge of building up learning environments. Yes, I agree. I am also thinking of secretly dropping out. There is by far not the same spirit and engagement discernible as I got to know it from the course 2 years ago. Martina Re: Is this really going to take us anywhere? by Jeff Cooper - Friday, 28 March 2003, 04:30 AM I would encourage both of you to stick with it for at least another week. I am the lone participant here who is both a student, and a moderator. I share your feelings to some extent, regarding the lack of structure and guidance. But on the other hand, if you consider the situation holistically, basically we are encountering a number of professionals on an international collaborative level, in a way that will develop over the next two months. I believe the leaders of this seminar, and I am not privy to all of their information either, so I am not speaking for them, intend for us to explore a variety of environments both individually and within groups. You are right that this is not a highly structured "top-down" didactic seminar. We haven't been told to do specific things in a specific way. Instead, we have been told to write up a brief proposal for our individual work (and I expect, we will be responded to next week when the moderating job begins), and hope to collaborate to the maximum levels possible with rather loose guidelines for how to accomplish this. This loosely structured environment is what I hoped for to some extent, but I agree with you there are many things left to be desired to date. Again, I ask you to give it another week, and see how things progress when the moderators start doing their jobs. Regards, Jeff Cooper Education Technology Specialist College of Education Pacific University Forest Grove, OR 97116 Re: Is this really going to take us anywhere? by Ken Larsson - Friday, 28 March 2003, 09:21 AM Hi Joerg, Martina and others Yes you are rigth in that this part of the Seminar is not organized in a top-down manner, that is one of the reasons it is called Online Seminar and not Online Course. And the basic principle we are trying to adhere to is the constructivistic approach, well aware that this is in actual fact "risky business" with potential loss of participants that wants more guidance and structure, especially as we are conducting this online and over longdistance communication. It is not the end result in itself that is the most intresting objective but rather the process. The important actor in this forum is not the moderator but the participants. As there is no way of knowing the background of the participants as we do not have any prerequists for participation the tasks are for sure percived differently by every participant. For some I am sure that the structure that actually exists may be viewed as very rigid, for some it may be percieved as too loose. The actuall content may for some be percieved as to advanced for some to basic. That is one of the reason that all participants should bring something into the group in form of other materials and the discussions around this collective material is the important experience. The moderators articles are not chosen with the idea that these are the best or the most correct views on the issues raised but with the idea that they should start discussions, the leading cuestions in the task discriptions also have the same purpose. And there has been a lot of very good discussions on these and other related issues. As the main part of this phase is the participators discussions, I am also convinced that it is the participants that can summarize these best, how have the participants experienced this phase ? Is this really going to take you anywhere ? Most definitly, just the fact that the "authority" is in question proves just this, you have read, discussed and drawn your own conclusions both regarding the content and regarding the process and come to the insigth that both these can be questioned, or not. Rigth there is a lot of "anywhere". Of course, this experience of being both producer and consumer in the learningprocess is cumbersome and for some even uncomfortable, but it is my firm conviction that it is the only way to gaining experience that lasts. For those that longs for more structure, there is a groupwork coming in the next week, in smaller group and with very specific tasks to be done, but you still have to work out how to do it yourself. So, I am convinced that you have in fact arrived somewhere, and that there is more to be explored and gained from sticking with us for the remainder of the Seminar. Have a nice weekend, and hope there will be more discussions on this and other issues before the Seminar will end. :-) Ken Re: Is this really going to take us anywhere? by Björn Finer - Friday, 28 March 2003, 10:46 AM This is an interesting discussion. :-) I laughed when I read your comment "I get warm welcomes by anyone", because I'm very unfamiliar with the familiarity here. I don't know how to reply any more. Before this seminar I've only visited very straightforward gaming forums, and NO ONE ever said "hi " when commenting. However, I don't think it's a bad idea to say hi to the person you're addressing. I'm just not familiar with it. I attend to this seminar AS a course, so if I get a grade from this course I'm happy with that. By the way, that's what I'm worried about. Am I contributing enough to this forum to get a grade? Re: Is this really going to take us anywhere? by Christer Lind - Friday, 28 March 2003, 11:24 AM Hi all in this diccusion. My feeling is YES - we have started to learn something. Even if I am still confused (see my comment on a related discussion subject http://seminar.jura.uni-sb.de/seminar2003/moodle/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=414&parent=3000), this confusion is maybe on a somewhat lower level (?). By trying to solve the assignments & quizzes I have for example discovered some to me new ways of using search engines. So I suggest that we all hang on for a while and see what will happen, if the seminar gets more structure, better co-operation in smaller sub groups etc. Have a nice weekend! :-) Christer Re: Is this really going to take us anywhere? by Jochen Dietermann - Saturday, 29 March 2003, 07:23 AM Hi to all, I agree with Jeff and Ken that this phase has taken us somewhere. If you followed the postings you may find lots of new and exciting views of some topics - remember the sychronous/asychronous discussion or the discussion around R. Masons article. To find the informations you are interested in there's sometimes a lot of search-work to be done, but if you formulate keywords for yourself to look for - as one of the participants suggested - you can make this work easier for yourself. For the ones who have accustomed to guided courses this "anarchistic-driven" discussion may look as a chaos - but remind how the universe was (and still is) built up. I think as adults we all have expiriences on self-guided learning but some of us may have to get a kick to believe in themselves. So, please, stay the following week where (as Ken and Jeff pointed out) the work and discussions will be more structured and we are joined in smaller groups. If you leave then there may fade some atoms to build a new planet in this online universe ;-) Now a private note: Some of you want me to see as a moderator. Well, I'm feeling thoroughly complimented, but in this seminar the separation of the roles moderator/student is not a very sharp one. By posting a new topic you will get into the role of the moderator and the others participating at this discussion by posting their comments and their questions. Inside a topic their maybe opened up a new topic when sombody is pointing on a new view of the topic and so. And this, indeed, is the exciting thing of this course - even if it is sometimes frustrating to keep the overview. Let's see what the next week will bring - and then we will make new plans. Hope to hear from all of you the next week. Jochen :-) lot of money. Mr. Masons article about the history of online-teaching and online-seminars is really pretty short (no offense) and if would be written down completly would certainly fill libraries. Realization of the huge amount of information available to a single individual trough online-teaching could bring every High-school teacher to tears. To make online-learning worthwhile and attractive for everybody, one has to be able to separate the useful from the useless information.That is probably the hardest part for anybody who seeks useful information on the internet. Who hasn´t searched the web for an important piece of clueage and in response has gotten tons of pornographic material and other useless information? Now, this problem could be solved in a technical way, but is still being worked on. Nevertheless is online-teaching, without a doubt, the teaching-method of the future, were the mere presence of a teacher is no longer required and larger amounts of students can profit from knowledge and experience of teachers hundreds of miles away. Therefore, the pedagogical value of online-teaching should no longer be questioned, because the advantages are obvious to anyone. In addition to that, no other form of education demands so much independent study from the student, as does online-teaching. The student has to realize and acknowledge the value of the things he or she is being taught, the stundent has to understand that learning is for their own good and not forced upon them by mean and cruel teachers. The opportunity to study should be considered a privilege, not an obligation. I think, that is the key to successful studies, which sort of exterminates the concept of "pedagogical evolution" (again, no offense intended).